Melody Maker, May 13, 1989: Difference between revisions
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THERE was a general feeling back then that you were purposely f””ing up your life to give you material for your songs. | THERE was a general feeling back then that you were purposely f””ing up your life to give you material for your songs. | ||
“I think I did that for about a year,” Costello says, tired now and showing it. “At the very most. And then I began to mistrust the results. Because if you do that, it’s like when they pour acid in rabbits’ eyes or something. What does it prove? It proves that it hurts the animal. Very smart. It’s unnecessary research. And I guess I did some unnecessary research for a while. And then I’d write something that would scare the hell out of me... Like, there’s a couple of things on ‘Get Happy!!’, that when I read them back, I just scared the hell out of myself. And I thought, ‘Uh-uh. . . better not think any more about this. . . it’s going too far. . .‘ Because you can think too f***in much, you know, and it gets a bit | “I think I did that for about a year,” Costello says, tired now and showing it. “At the very most. And then I began to mistrust the results. Because if you do that, it’s like when they pour acid in rabbits’ eyes or something. What does it prove? It proves that it hurts the animal. Very smart. It’s unnecessary research. And I guess I did some unnecessary research for a while. And then I’d write something that would scare the hell out of me... Like, there’s a couple of things on ‘Get Happy!!’, that when I read them back, I just scared the hell out of myself. And I thought, ‘Uh-uh. . . better not think any more about this. . . it’s going too far. . .‘ Because you can think too f***in much, you know, and it gets a bit f””in’ evil” | ||
Did you ever during this period think you were going too for, becoming too personal, too explicit, pouring too much venom, rage and spite into your songs? | Did you ever during this period think you were going too for, becoming too personal, too explicit, pouring too much venom, rage and spite into your songs? | ||
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“The fact is, those songs were never merely confessional.. . Even if you’re satisfying your own selfish desire to put somebody down in a song or praise them, it isn’t important that everybody knows who you’re writing about or the specific emotional situation that provoked it. The song should have a universal appeal, otherwise it doesn’t serve any purpose. It becomes merely self-indulgent. Like, ‘Let me tell you some more secrets about myself. . .‘ It’s all me me me. And that just gets really f*+*in~ painful after a while. But then you get people saying, ‘Well at least it’s honest.’ But is it? Is it honest to go around going, ‘Look at my open sores.’ I don’t think it is. I think it’s just f’in’ indulgent.” | “The fact is, those songs were never merely confessional.. . Even if you’re satisfying your own selfish desire to put somebody down in a song or praise them, it isn’t important that everybody knows who you’re writing about or the specific emotional situation that provoked it. The song should have a universal appeal, otherwise it doesn’t serve any purpose. It becomes merely self-indulgent. Like, ‘Let me tell you some more secrets about myself. . .‘ It’s all me me me. And that just gets really f*+*in~ painful after a while. But then you get people saying, ‘Well at least it’s honest.’ But is it? Is it honest to go around going, ‘Look at my open sores.’ I don’t think it is. I think it’s just f’in’ indulgent.” | ||
DO you feel resentful, then, that people still dig through the bones of your songs, looking for the explicitly autobiographical in your writing? “No, I don’t resent it,” Costello laughs, setting off a bout of wheezing. “Just blame John Lennon. It’s the ‘Plastic Ono Band’, that album started it all. After that everything was supposed to be f***in~ confessional. The early Seventies were full of all these people baring | DO you feel resentful, then, that people still dig through the bones of your songs, looking for the explicitly autobiographical in your writing? “No, I don’t resent it,” Costello laughs, setting off a bout of wheezing. “Just blame John Lennon. It’s the ‘Plastic Ono Band’, that album started it all. After that everything was supposed to be f***in~ confessional. The early Seventies were full of all these people baring their f”””in’ souls for public scrutiny. There were records whose authenticity depended on the confessional aspect, and if you read certain magazines and the background interviews, you knew who these songs were about. | ||
“And that for me always used to spoil it. Particularly when you found out what dickheads some of the people were that they were writing about. I’d rather have them be like Smokey Robinson songs, which could be about anyone. I don’t think it’s important that people know who ‘Alison’ was actually about. It’s none of their f”’in’ business. It’s a song. ‘I Want You’ is a song. It doesn’t matter who it’s about. . | “And that for me always used to spoil it. Particularly when you found out what dickheads some of the people were that they were writing about. I’d rather have them be like Smokey Robinson songs, which could be about anyone. I don’t think it’s important that people know who ‘Alison’ was actually about. It’s none of their f”’in’ business. It’s a song. ‘I Want You’ is a song. It doesn’t matter who it’s about. . | ||
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“And who’s outrageous anymore? Like I was just in a radio station somewhere in America, in the south, quite a mainstream station. And this guy said, quite a mainstream station. And this guy said, ‘Sometimes I just have to let my hair down and get outta here, go over to my old college station and play as much Nick Heyward as l like!’ And with all due respect to Nick, he’s no Jimmy Reed. I mean, I think Nick Heyward’s made a couple of nice records, but he’s not the wild man of rock’n’roIl. But he was this guy’s definition of outrageous. . . And if that’s indicative of the present climate, it’s maybe not so curious that I still get some attention. And it’s maybe why anything I do, not so much in England, but particularly in the States, seems to them to be effortlessly weird. | “And who’s outrageous anymore? Like I was just in a radio station somewhere in America, in the south, quite a mainstream station. And this guy said, quite a mainstream station. And this guy said, ‘Sometimes I just have to let my hair down and get outta here, go over to my old college station and play as much Nick Heyward as l like!’ And with all due respect to Nick, he’s no Jimmy Reed. I mean, I think Nick Heyward’s made a couple of nice records, but he’s not the wild man of rock’n’roIl. But he was this guy’s definition of outrageous. . . And if that’s indicative of the present climate, it’s maybe not so curious that I still get some attention. And it’s maybe why anything I do, not so much in England, but particularly in the States, seems to them to be effortlessly weird. | ||
“So to get over to them the fact that the record isn’t all that strange, you sometimes have to fill in a little of the background. You know, I’ve run into this a lot. People build up such preconceptions or they just associate you with one thing and they can’t hear anything else you do. It’s like they’re looking at a painting you’ve done, upside down. Unless you can change their point of view, they’re | “So to get over to them the fact that the record isn’t all that strange, you sometimes have to fill in a little of the background. You know, I’ve run into this a lot. People build up such preconceptions or they just associate you with one thing and they can’t hear anything else you do. It’s like they’re looking at a painting you’ve done, upside down. Unless you can change their point of view, they’re never gonna see what that picture is. That’s another reason I thought talking about the album was worthwhile. | ||
“I mean, there are people even now that can’t hear this record because they can only hear the old records through it. They manage to synthesize the sound of it. I’ve actually read it in print: that this sounds exactly like all my other records. Some German guy when I was doing all the interviews in Europe, he came along in a trench coat and he’s going, ‘I zink ze rekort iz a verk of genius, | “I mean, there are people even now that can’t hear this record because they can only hear the old records through it. They manage to synthesize the sound of it. I’ve actually read it in print: that this sounds exactly like all my other records. Some German guy when I was doing all the interviews in Europe, he came along in a trench coat and he’s going, ‘I zink ze rekort iz a verk of genius, but zer iz no new way forwert.’ He thought there were no new ideas on it. I said, Well, I don’t remember ever before writing a song about a comedian dying and going up to heaven and meeting God. Show me were that appears in my back catalogue and I’ll agree with you.’ And he went, ‘No | ||
it does not have ze post-modern vey.’ And I thought, ‘What’s post-modern?’ It doesn’t exist. It’s an oxymoron. It’s a senseless concept. Like military intelligence. Or Vice President Dan Quayle. | it does not have ze post-modern vey.’ And I thought, ‘What’s post-modern?’ It doesn’t exist. It’s an oxymoron. It’s a senseless concept. Like military intelligence. Or Vice President Dan Quayle. | ||
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“...Sting,” Costello laughs. He knows what I’m talking about. “I always try to avoid slandering Sting because he’s such an easy target,” he continues. “And he’s so pompous at times, but I think he’s basically a decent guy. . .We had a very funny conversation at that Clapham anti-apartheid thing that Dammers put together, the one that lost all the money. And he came into my dressing room, because he always seems to sort of seek me out if we’re ever anywhere together, to take me to task for the last horrible thing I’ve said about him. | “...Sting,” Costello laughs. He knows what I’m talking about. “I always try to avoid slandering Sting because he’s such an easy target,” he continues. “And he’s so pompous at times, but I think he’s basically a decent guy. . .We had a very funny conversation at that Clapham anti-apartheid thing that Dammers put together, the one that lost all the money. And he came into my dressing room, because he always seems to sort of seek me out if we’re ever anywhere together, to take me to task for the last horrible thing I’ve said about him. | ||
“And he said, ‘I really don’t know what I’m going to do next, What topics are there left for me to discuss?’ And I said, ‘That’s the f***in~ trouble with you.’ I said, ‘You’ve been a bloody pop star for 10 years — now you want to be a serious f***in artist. Don’t come around here with your serious artist shit. And by the way, fire | “And he said, ‘I really don’t know what I’m going to do next, What topics are there left for me to discuss?’ And I said, ‘That’s the f***in~ trouble with you.’ I said, ‘You’ve been a bloody pop star for 10 years — now you want to be a serious f***in artist. Don’t come around here with your serious artist shit. And by the way, fire that f***in~ piano player.’ He seemed to take it quite well. And I think it’s good for people like that to hove people like me around to take the piss out of them. . . It’s almost like they need people who aren’t afraid to take the piss out of them so they can sharpen their act up a bit. Because he’s pretty good, Sting, when you get in a little fencing match with him. He’s a pretty sharp guy. He’s not quite as pompous and idiotic as he might appear in a few of the announcements he makes in the papers.” | ||
Then why do I feel this irresistible compulsion to ridicule the posturing old bastard at every conceivable opportunity? | Then why do I feel this irresistible compulsion to ridicule the posturing old bastard at every conceivable opportunity? | ||
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“And I suppose it was just this very effete, affected form of protest that didn’t really mean anything that gotto me. These people, they really meant it. I think they were sincere, so I don’t want to start slagging them off. But in the long run, it was just a lot of cocktail party chat. | “And I suppose it was just this very effete, affected form of protest that didn’t really mean anything that gotto me. These people, they really meant it. I think they were sincere, so I don’t want to start slagging them off. But in the long run, it was just a lot of cocktail party chat. | ||
“It reminded me of that Woody Allen movie. He’s at some chi-chi kind of party and everyone’s talking about orgasms, and then suddenly he introduces Nazis into the conversation. He tells them that a group of Nazis are gonna march on New Jersey. And this guy goes, ‘Oh, yes — there was a witheringly funny cartoon about that in the papers. . . Humour, that’s the way to deal with these people, don’t you think?’ And Woody Allen says, ‘No.’ He says, ‘When it comes to Nazis, I find baseball bats are much more effective.’ | “It reminded me of that Woody Allen movie. He’s at some chi-chi kind of party and everyone’s talking about orgasms, and then suddenly he introduces Nazis into the conversation. He tells them that a group of Nazis are gonna march on New Jersey. And this guy goes, ‘Oh, yes — there was a witheringly funny cartoon about that in the papers. . . Humour, that’s the way to deal with these people, don’t you think?’ And Woody Allen says, ‘No.’ He says, ‘When it comes to Nazis, I find baseball bats are much more effective.’ | ||
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SO what does “Tramp The Dirt Down” achieve, what will it change? | SO what does “Tramp The Dirt Down” achieve, what will it change? | ||
“Nothing I can think of,” says Costello. “I honestly don’t think it will change anything. Like I said to one guy who asked a similar question, songs like that, they’re like tiny marker buoys. . . this is where the ship went down. A song like that, it’s not a party political broadcast, there’s no manifesto.. . It just says, ‘I’ll only be happy when this woman’s dead.’ | “Nothing I can think of,” says Costello. “I honestly don’t think it will change anything. Like I said to one guy who asked a similar question, songs like that, they’re like tiny marker buoys. . . this is where the ship went down. A song like that, it’s not a party political broadcast, there’s no manifesto.. . It just says, ‘I’ll only be happy when this woman’s dead.’ | ||
“And some people no doubt might find that extreme. But it’s meant to be. I make no apology for that song. It’s an honest emotional response to events. And yes, it’s unreasonable, it’s irrational, and writing it was like casting out demons or something. And the song itself is the result of a form of madness, because when you get to that point of thinking these thoughts, actually wishing somebody dead, it really does become a form of madness. It’s a psychopathic thought. And it’s f***in~ disturbing to find it in your own head. But it would be cowardly not to express it. Because once it’s there, if you don’t get it out, it’s only gonna come back and haunt you some more. | “And some people no doubt might find that extreme. But it’s meant to be. I make no apology for that song. It’s an honest emotional response to events. And yes, it’s unreasonable, it’s irrational, and writing it was like casting out demons or something. And the song itself is the result of a form of madness, because when you get to that point of thinking these thoughts, actually wishing somebody dead, it really does become a form of madness. It’s a psychopathic thought. And it’s f***in~ disturbing to find it in your own head. But it would be cowardly not to express it. Because once it’s there, if you don’t get it out, it’s only gonna come back and haunt you some more. | ||
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“But I think it does have maybe an individual effect. There’s always a chance it’ll sneak through somehow. Like, I sang it in Shetland, at the folk festival, and I sang it in one place that was very brightly lit and I could see the audience quite clearly. And all the way through, there was one guy nodding away, applauding every line, obviously getting into it. And on the other side, there was another guy being physically restrained from getting up on the stage and hitting me. He just fused, he really went. You could see it in his face. And I thought, Well, I’ve really got a winner now.’ To the extent, you know, that it had succeeded in being at least provocative.” | “But I think it does have maybe an individual effect. There’s always a chance it’ll sneak through somehow. Like, I sang it in Shetland, at the folk festival, and I sang it in one place that was very brightly lit and I could see the audience quite clearly. And all the way through, there was one guy nodding away, applauding every line, obviously getting into it. And on the other side, there was another guy being physically restrained from getting up on the stage and hitting me. He just fused, he really went. You could see it in his face. And I thought, Well, I’ve really got a winner now.’ To the extent, you know, that it had succeeded in being at least provocative.” | ||
Is that all you can ask of a song these days? “I’ve never really known what you’re supposed to expect from songs,” Costello says. “And I think there’s a danger in the very talking about it, it makes it seem like you’ve achieved more than you have.. | Is that all you can ask of a song these days? “I’ve never really known what you’re supposed to expect from songs,” Costello says. “And I think there’s a danger in the very talking about it, it makes it seem like you’ve achieved more than you have.. | ||
Especially when the song itself becomes merely attention grabbing because of its subject. Like Morrissey’s “Margaret On The Guillotine”, which ended up as a novelty, trivialising the argument. | Especially when the song itself becomes merely attention grabbing because of its subject. Like Morrissey’s “Margaret On The Guillotine”, which ended up as a novelty, trivialising the argument. | ||
“I don’t know much about Morrissey,” Costello admits, “apart from the fact that he sometimes brings out records with the greatest titles in the world, which somewhere along the line he neglects to write songs for. But I haven’t heard that particular song, so I can’t really comment on it. But generally, I think the best that can be achieved by songs like ‘Tramp The Dirt Down’ is something like ‘Free Nelson Mandela’ achieved. The record didn’t get Mandela released, but it did increase the membership of the anti-apartheid movement, because Jerry very intelligently printed their address on the sleeve. And the record introduced Mandela to a lot of people who maybe otherwise would never have heard of him. And there’s a point where political art only works at that level — the communication of basic information. | “I don’t know much about Morrissey,” Costello admits, “apart from the fact that he sometimes brings out records with the greatest titles in the world, which somewhere along the line he neglects to write songs for. But I haven’t heard that particular song, so I can’t really comment on it. But generally, I think the best that can be achieved by songs like ‘Tramp The Dirt Down’ is something like ‘Free Nelson Mandela’ achieved. The record didn’t get Mandela released, but it did increase the membership of the anti-apartheid movement, because Jerry very intelligently printed their address on the sleeve. And the record introduced Mandela to a lot of people who maybe otherwise would never have heard of him. And there’s a point where political art only works at that level — the communication of basic information. | ||
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“So The Sun runs this thing saying I swore on a live television show. And it was obviously pre-recorded because I was in America when it was shown. But a spokesman is supposed to have said, Well, it jolly well caused a stink around here at the BBC.’ And they even quoted me. ‘Costello said last night, “I stand by every word.” Well, they must be f***in telepathic at the f***n Sun, because no one spoke to me about it. | “So The Sun runs this thing saying I swore on a live television show. And it was obviously pre-recorded because I was in America when it was shown. But a spokesman is supposed to have said, Well, it jolly well caused a stink around here at the BBC.’ And they even quoted me. ‘Costello said last night, “I stand by every word.” Well, they must be f***in telepathic at the f***n Sun, because no one spoke to me about it. | ||
“But that’s an accolade, to get that sort of thing written about you in The Sun. It means you’re still getting up somebody’s f***in nose. | “But that’s an accolade, to get that sort of thing written about you in The Sun. It means you’re still getting up somebody’s f***in nose. | ||
Revision as of 14:32, 17 April 2013
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