Melody Maker, May 13, 1989: Difference between revisions
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"So to get over to them the fact that the record isn't all that strange, you sometimes have to fill in a little of the background. You know, I've run into this a lot. People build up such preconceptions or they just associate you with one thing and they can't hear anything else you do. It's like they're looking at a painting you've done, upside down. Unless you can change their point of view, they're never gonna see what that picture is. That's another reason I thought talking about the album was worthwhile. | "So to get over to them the fact that the record isn't all that strange, you sometimes have to fill in a little of the background. You know, I've run into this a lot. People build up such preconceptions or they just associate you with one thing and they can't hear anything else you do. It's like they're looking at a painting you've done, upside down. Unless you can change their point of view, they're never gonna see what that picture is. That's another reason I thought talking about the album was worthwhile. | ||
"I mean, there are people even now that can't hear this record because they can only hear the old records through it. They manage to synthesize the sound of it. I've actually read it in print: that this sounds exactly like all my other records. Some German guy when I was doing all the interviews in Europe, he came along in a trench coat and he's going, 'I zink ze rekort iz a verk of genius, but zer iz no new way forwert.' He thought there were no new ideas on it. I said, Well, I don't remember ever before writing a song about a comedian dying and going up to heaven and meeting God. Show me were that appears in my back catalogue and I'll agree with you.' And he went, 'No it does not have ze post-modern vey.' And I thought, 'What's post-modern?' It doesn't exist. It's an oxymoron. It's a senseless concept. Like military intelligence. Or Vice President Dan Quayle. | "I mean, there are people even now that can't hear this record because they can only hear the old records through it. They manage to synthesize the sound of it. I've actually read it in print: that this sounds exactly like all my other records. Some German guy when I was doing all the interviews in Europe, he came along in a trench coat and he's going, 'I zink ze rekort iz a verk of genius, but zer iz no new way forwert.' He thought there were no new ideas on it. I said, Well, I don't remember ever before writing a song about a comedian dying and going up to heaven and meeting God. Show me were that appears in my back catalogue and I'll agree with you.' And he went, 'No ...it does not have ze post-modern vey.' And I thought, '<i>What's post-modern</i>?' It doesn't exist. It's an oxymoron. It's a senseless concept. Like military intelligence. Or Vice President Dan Quayle. | ||
"But, anyway, it proved the point that sometimes with the best will in the world to try and speak plainly to people, you can't do anything about how people listen to what you're doing. They'll hear whatever they want to hear." | "But, anyway, it proved the point that sometimes with the best will in the world to try and speak plainly to people, you can't do anything about how people listen to what you're doing. They'll hear whatever they want to hear." | ||
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Costello is appalled by this description. | Costello is appalled by this description. | ||
"I absolutely resent that," he says, hauling himself out of a slouch. "You make it sound like we were sending these songs on f***in' holiday. It's nonsense. The songs were recorded wherever it was best for the songs, and played by the people we thought would play them best. | "I absolutely resent that," he says, hauling himself out of a slouch. "You make it sound like we were sending these songs on f***in' ''holiday''. It's nonsense. The songs were recorded wherever it was best for the songs, and played by the people we thought would play them best. | ||
"I don't think your criticism holds up at all. I think it's just a cheap shot. You know, it's amazing. I got accused yesterday of using the Irish musicians on 'Any King's Shilling' because it was fashionable to be into traditional folk music, it's a ludicrous argument. I was getting thrown out of folk clubs 20 years ago... | "I don't think your criticism holds up at all. I think it's just a cheap shot. You know, it's amazing. I got accused yesterday of using the Irish musicians on 'Any King's Shilling' because it was fashionable to be into traditional folk music, it's a ludicrous argument. I was getting thrown out of folk clubs 20 years ago... | ||
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"At the same time, it's obviously not lost on me that the song has a more topical relevance. The idea that the song could be about something that's still happening today isn't beyond possibility. But you don't have to shout it from the f***in' mountain tops to make sure people make the connection. So the choice of instruments and the formality of the arrangement, it isn't a form of musical tourism. It's an attempts create a kind of snapshot of the past. | "At the same time, it's obviously not lost on me that the song has a more topical relevance. The idea that the song could be about something that's still happening today isn't beyond possibility. But you don't have to shout it from the f***in' mountain tops to make sure people make the connection. So the choice of instruments and the formality of the arrangement, it isn't a form of musical tourism. It's an attempts create a kind of snapshot of the past. | ||
"And for my money, it works. It's only if you're determined to criticise the record without thinking about it that you could say I'm using these instruments just because they're hip. That's just shit, nonsense. In each case, each song was a story that we told from the inside first. It's not what the more facile critics have assumed, which is that it's somehow showing off, which it isn't at all. I can get really indignant about this, because I really know I'm justified in the use of all the instruments. | "And for my money, it works. It's only if you're determined to criticise the record without thinking about it that you could say I'm using these instruments just because they're ''hip''. That's just shit, nonsense. In each case, each song was a story that we told from the inside first. It's ''not'' what the more facile critics have assumed, which is that it's somehow showing off, which it isn't at all. I can get really indignant about this, because I really ''know'' I'm justified in the use of all the instruments. | ||
"When it comes down to it, they don't know what | "When it comes down to it, ''they'' don't know what ''I'' know. It sounds arrogant, but that happens to be the way it is." | ||
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Then why do I feel this irresistible compulsion to ridicule the posturing old bastard at every conceivable opportunity? | Then why do I feel this irresistible compulsion to ridicule the posturing old bastard at every conceivable opportunity? | ||
"Probably because nothing he ever does quite rings true," Costello offers. "If he's making a speech about the Amazonian rain forests, he has to go and get himself painted up by the tribe... and it's like, 'Oh, NO! Don't do that, Sting! For f*** | "Probably because nothing he ever does quite rings true," Costello offers. "If he's making a speech about the Amazonian rain forests, he has to go and get himself painted up by the tribe... and it's like, 'Oh, NO! Don't do ''that'', Sting! For f***'s ''sake''.' But that's maybe what you've got to do if you're standing onstage at the Markana stadium in Rio trying to make a very sincere statement. Maybe you do have to make it in neon letters, eight feet high. In which case, ''of course'' it's gonna end up being a f***in' platitude. | ||
"I remember I did this [[Concert 1983-12-18 London|benefit show]] with Susannah York a few years ago, called The Big One. And it had real good intentions, and it had U2 and The Style Council and Ian Dury and a few other people who have since disappeared, like Mari Wilson. And every f***in' actor in England was on it. And it ran hideously over time, by about three-and-a-half hours. And these people couldn't see that the words they were saying were just falling out of their mouths and dropping onto the floor. And in the long run, I was the same as everyone else... | "I remember I did this [[Concert 1983-12-18 London|benefit show]] with Susannah York a few years ago, called The Big One. And it had real good intentions, and it had U2 and The Style Council and Ian Dury and a few other people who have since disappeared, like Mari Wilson. And every f***in' actor in England was on it. And it ran hideously over time, by about three-and-a-half hours. And these people couldn't see that the words they were saying were just falling out of their mouths and dropping onto the floor. And in the long run, I was the same as everyone else... | ||
"Everything was just like... all the words they were spouting were like... it was like they were made out of cast iron. They didn't fly through the air and hit people where they're supposed to be hit, wherever it is, the head or the heart. They just went clunk on the floor, like a load of f***in' scrap metal, you know. | "Everything was just like... all the words they were spouting were like... it was like they were made out of ''cast iron''. They didn't fly through the air and hit people where they're supposed to be hit, wherever it is, the head or the heart. They just went clunk on the floor, like a load of f***in' scrap metal, you know. | ||
"And I suppose it was just this very effete, affected form of protest that didn't really mean anything that got to me. These people, they really meant it. I think they were sincere, so I don't want to start slagging them off. But in the long run, it was just a lot of cocktail party chat. | "And I suppose it was just this very effete, affected form of protest that didn't really mean anything that got to me. These people, they really meant it. I think they were sincere, so I don't want to start slagging them off. But in the long run, it was just a lot of cocktail party chat. | ||
"It reminded me of that Woody Allen movie. He's at some chi-chi kind of party and everyone's talking about orgasms, and then suddenly he introduces Nazis into the conversation. He tells them that a group of Nazis are gonna march on New Jersey. And this guy goes, 'Oh, yes — there was a witheringly funny cartoon about that in the papers... Humour, that's the way to deal with these people, don't you think?' And Woody Allen says, 'No.' He says, 'When it comes to Nazis, I find baseball bats are much more effective.' | "It reminded me of that Woody Allen movie. He's at some chi-chi kind of party and everyone's talking about orgasms, and then suddenly he introduces Nazis into the conversation. He tells them that a group of Nazis are gonna march on New Jersey. And this guy goes, 'Oh, yes — there was a witheringly funny cartoon about that in the papers... ''Humour'', that's the way to deal with these people, don't you think?' And Woody Allen says, 'No.' He says, 'When it comes to Nazis, I find baseball bats are ''much'' more effective.' | ||
"I don't think you have to spend too long pondering the significance of that remark to get the point." | "I don't think you have to spend too long pondering the significance of that remark to get the point." | ||
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So what does "Tramp The Dirt Down" achieve, what will it change? | So what does "Tramp The Dirt Down" achieve, what will it change? | ||
"Nothing I can think of," says Costello. "I honestly don't think it will change anything. Like I said to one guy who asked a similar question, songs like that, they're like tiny marker buoys... this is where the ship went down. A song like that, it's not a party political broadcast, there's no manifesto... It just says, 'I'll only be happy when this woman's dead.' | "Nothing I can think of," says Costello. "I honestly don't think it will change anything. Like I said to one guy who asked a similar question, songs like that, they're like tiny marker buoys... this is where the ship went down. A song like that, it's not a party political broadcast, there's no ''manifesto''... It just says, 'I'll only be happy when this woman's dead.' | ||
"And some people no doubt might find that extreme. But it's meant to be. I make no apology for that song. It's an honest emotional response to events. And yes, it's unreasonable, it's irrational, and writing it was like casting out demons or something. And the song itself is the result of a form of madness, because when you get to that point of thinking these thoughts, actually wishing somebody dead, it really does become a form of madness. It's a psychopathic thought. And it's f***in' disturbing to find it in your own head. But it would be cowardly not to express it. Because once it's there, if you don't get it out, it's only gonna come back and haunt you some more. | "And some people no doubt might find that extreme. But it's ''meant'' to be. I make no apology for that song. It's an honest emotional response to events. And yes, it's unreasonable, it's irrational, and writing it was like casting out demons or something. And the song itself is the result of a form of madness, because when you get to that point of thinking these thoughts, actually wishing somebody dead, it really does become a form of madness. It's a psychopathic thought. And it's f***in' disturbing to find it in your own head. But it would be cowardly not to express it. Because once it's there, if you don't get it out, it's only gonna come back and haunt you some more. | ||
"I also think you have to remember that it's not only her the song is aimed at. It's what she represents. The way she's changed the way people value things. It's like some kind of mass hypnosis she's achieved. People are afraid to speak out. You know, one thing I thought I'd be asked when people heard it was whether I was saying it might've been a good thing if she'd died at Brighton. I don't think so. It would have made things 10 times worse, because then she would have been a martyr. We would have had a dead queen. So, really, in a profound sense, the song is hopeless. It's a hopeless argument. Because I think it's a hopeless situation. So, no, it's not in a large, historical sense, going to change anything. | "I also think you have to remember that it's not only ''her'' the song is aimed at. It's what she ''represents''. The way she's changed the way people value things. It's like some kind of mass hypnosis she's achieved. People are afraid to speak out. You know, one thing I thought I'd be asked when people heard it was whether I was saying it might've been a good thing if she'd died at Brighton. I don't think so. It would have made things 10 times worse, because then she would have been a martyr. We would have had a dead queen. So, really, in a profound sense, the song is hopeless. It's a hopeless argument. Because I think it's a hopeless situation. So, no, it's not in a large, historical sense, going to change anything. | ||
"But I think it does have maybe an individual effect. There's always a chance it'll sneak through somehow. Like, I sang it in Shetland, at the folk festival, and I sang it in one place that was very brightly lit and I could see the audience quite clearly. And all the way through, there was one guy nodding away, applauding every line, obviously getting into it. And on the other side, there was another guy being physically restrained from getting up on the stage and hitting me. He just fused, he really went. You could see it in his face. And I thought, Well, I've really got a winner now.' To the extent, you know, that it had succeeded in being at least provocative." | "But I think it does have maybe an individual effect. There's always a chance it'll sneak through somehow. Like, I sang it in Shetland, at the folk festival, and I sang it in one place that was very brightly lit and I could see the audience quite clearly. And all the way through, there was one guy nodding away, applauding every line, obviously getting into it. And on the other side, there was another guy being physically restrained from getting up on the stage and hitting me. He just fused, he really went. You could see it in his face. And I thought, Well, I've really got a winner now.' To the extent, you know, that it had succeeded in being at least provocative." | ||
Is that all you can ask of a song these days? "I've never really known what you're supposed to expect from songs," Costello says. "And I think there's a danger in the very talking about it, it makes it seem like you've achieved more than you have.. | Is that all you can ask of a song these days? | ||
"I've never really known ''what'' you're supposed to expect from songs," Costello says. "And I think there's a danger in the very talking about it, it makes it seem like you've achieved more than you have.. | |||
Especially when the song itself becomes merely attention grabbing because of its subject. Like Morrissey's "Margaret On The Guillotine", which ended up as a novelty, trivialising the argument. | Especially when the song itself becomes merely attention grabbing because of its subject. Like Morrissey's "Margaret On The Guillotine", which ended up as a novelty, trivialising the argument. | ||
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"I don't know much about Morrissey," Costello admits, "apart from the fact that he sometimes brings out records with the greatest titles in the world, which somewhere along the line he neglects to write songs for. But I haven't heard that particular song, so I can't really comment on it. But generally, I think the best that can be achieved by songs like 'Tramp The Dirt Down' is something like 'Free Nelson Mandela' achieved. The record didn't get Mandela released, but it did increase the membership of the anti-apartheid movement, because Jerry very intelligently printed their address on the sleeve. And the record introduced Mandela to a lot of people who maybe otherwise would never have heard of him. And there's a point where political art only works at that level — the communication of basic information. | "I don't know much about Morrissey," Costello admits, "apart from the fact that he sometimes brings out records with the greatest titles in the world, which somewhere along the line he neglects to write songs for. But I haven't heard that particular song, so I can't really comment on it. But generally, I think the best that can be achieved by songs like 'Tramp The Dirt Down' is something like 'Free Nelson Mandela' achieved. The record didn't get Mandela released, but it did increase the membership of the anti-apartheid movement, because Jerry very intelligently printed their address on the sleeve. And the record introduced Mandela to a lot of people who maybe otherwise would never have heard of him. And there's a point where political art only works at that level — the communication of basic information. | ||
"On a more immediate level," Costello goes on, no stopping him now, "you can, I suppose, hope to annoy people, like that guy in Shetland. I mean, The Sun ran a piece a couple of weeks ago saying I'd been banned by the BBC because I said 'I'm f***in' sick of this' on ''The Late Show''. I haven't seen the programme, but I remember swearing. I was asked something and I remember saying, 'I'm 35 years old, I'm not a boy any more. Don't patronise me.' It's like that Grateful Dead song, 'Ship Of Fools' — ''It makes me wild / With 30 years upon my head / To have you call me child''... You do sometimes feel particularly with the nanny aspect of this government, that they are treating everybody like they're little f***in children... | "On a more immediate level," Costello goes on, no stopping him now, "you ''can'', I suppose, hope to annoy people, like that guy in Shetland. I mean, The Sun ran a piece a couple of weeks ago saying I'd been banned by the BBC because I said 'I'm f***in' sick of this' on ''The Late Show''. I haven't seen the programme, but I remember swearing. I was asked something and I remember saying, 'I'm 35 years old, I'm not a boy any more. Don't ''patronise'' me.' It's like that Grateful Dead song, 'Ship Of Fools' — ''"It makes me wild / With 30 years upon my head / To have you call me child"''... You do sometimes feel particularly with the nanny aspect of this government, that they are treating everybody like they're little f***in children... | ||
"So ''The Sun'' runs this thing saying I swore on a live television show. And it was obviously pre-recorded because I was in America when it was shown. But a spokesman is supposed to have said, 'Well, it jolly well caused a stink around here at the BBC.' And they even quoted me. 'Costello said last night, "I stand by every word." Well, they must be f***in telepathic at the f***n ''Sun'', because no one spoke to me about it. | "So ''The Sun'' runs this thing saying I swore on a ''live'' television show. And it was obviously pre-recorded because I was in America when it was shown. But a spokesman is supposed to have said, 'Well, it jolly well caused a stink around here at the BBC.' And they even quoted me. 'Costello said last night, "I stand by every word." Well, they must be f***in ''telepathic'' at the f***n ''Sun'', because no one spoke to me about it. | ||
"But that's an accolade, to get that sort of thing written about you in ''The Sun''. It means you're still getting up somebody's f***in nose. | "But that's an accolade, to get that sort of thing written about you in ''The Sun''. It means you're still getting up ''somebody's'' f***in nose. | ||
"And these days, that's an achievement in itself." | "And these days, that's an achievement in itself." |
Revision as of 21:35, 5 May 2014
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